Phaedrus — Plato
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p. 39in talking with me, he was prevented from seeing Cleinias, who was between us ; and so, partly because he wanted to look at his love, and also because he was interested, he jumped up and stood opposite to us : and all the other admirers of Cleinias, as well as the disciples ot Euthydemus and Dionysodorus, followed his example.
And these were the persons wliom I showed to Euthydemus, telling him that they were all eager to learn : to which Ctesippus and all of them with one voice vehemently assented, and bid him exhibit the |)()\ver of his wisdom. Then I said : O Euthydemus and Dionysodorus, I earnestly request you to do myself and the company the favor to exhibit.
There may be some trouble in giving the whole exhibition ; but tell me one thing, — can yo 1 make a good man only of him who is convinced that he ought to learn of you, or of him also who is not convinced? either because he imagines that virtue is not a thing which can be taught at all, or that you two are not the teachers of it.
Say whether your art is able to persuade such a one nevertheless that virtue can be taught ; and that you are the men from whom he will be most likely to learn. This is the art, Socrates, said Dionysodorus, and no other. And you, Dionysodorus, I said, are the men who among those who are now living are the most likely to stimulate him to philosophy and the study of virtue? Yes, Socrates, I rather think that we are.
Then I wish that you would be so good as to defer the other l)art of the exhibition, and only try to persuade the youth whom you see here that he ought to be a philosopher and study virtue. Exhibit that, and you will confer '^ a great favor on me and on every one present ; for the fact is that I and all of us are extremely anxious that he should Ikj truly good.
His name is Cleinias, and he is the son of Axiochus, and grandson of the old Alcibiades, cousin of the Alcibiades that no\Y^is. He is quite young, and we are natnr illy afraid that soihe one may get the start of us, and turn his mind in a wrong direction, and he may be ruined. Your visit, therefore, is most happily timed ; and I hope that you will make a trial of the young man, and converse with him in our presence, if you have no objection. These were pretty nearly the expressions which I used ; and Euthydemus, in a lofty and at the same time cheerful p. 40tone, replied : There can be no objection, Socrates, if the young man is only willing to answer questions. He is quite accustomed to that, I replied ; for his friends often come and ask him questions and argue with him ; so that he is at home in answering.
What followed, Crito, how can I rightly narrate? for not slight is the task of rehearsing infinite wisdom, and therefore, like the poets, I ought to commence my relation with an invocation to Memory and the Muses. *^ Now Euthydemus, if I remember rightly, began nearly as follows : O Cleinias, are those who learn the wise or the ignorant ?
The youth, overpowered by the question, blushed, and in his perplexity looked at me for help ; and I, knowing that he was disconcerted, said : Don't be afraid, Cleinias, but answer like a man whichever you think ; for my belief is that you will derive the greatest good from their questions. Whichever he answers, said Dionysodorus, leaning forward in my ear and laughing, I prophesy that he will be refuted, Socrates.
While he was speaking to me, Cleinias gave his answer: the consequence was that I had no time to warn him of the ^ predicament in which he was placed, and he answered that those who learned were the wise. Euthydemus proceeded : There are those v.hom you call teachers, are there not ? The boy assented.
And they are the teachers of those who learn, — the grammar-master and the lyre-master used to teach you and other boys ; and you were the learners ? Yes. And when you were learners you did not as yet know the things which you were learning? No, he said. And were you wise then ? No, indeed, he said. But if you were not wise you were unlearned? Certainly. You then, learning what you did not know, were unlearned when you were learning?
'* Originally, nymphs of springs whose waters were thought to inspire song ; then goddesses of song, music, poetry, the drama and all fine arts.
EUTHYDEMUS 4I The youth nodded assent. Then the unlearned learn, and not the wise, Cleinias, as you imagine. At these words the followers of Euthydemus, of whom I spoke, like a chorus at the bidding of their director, laughed and cheered.
Then,- before the youth had well time to recover, Dionysodorus took him in hand, and said : Yes, Cleinias ; and when the grammar-master dictated to you, were they the wise boys or the unlearned who learned the dictation ? The wise, replied Cleinias. Then after all the wise are the learners and not the unlearned ; and your last answer to Euthydemus was wrong.
Then followed another peal of laughter and shouting, which came from the admirers of the two heroes, who were ravished with their wisdom, while the rest of us were silent and amazed. Euthydemus perceiving this determined to |)ersevere with the youth; and in order to heighten the effect went on asking another similar question, which might be compared to the double turn of an expert dancer.
Do those, said he, who learn, learn what they know, or what they do not know? Dionysodorus said to me in a whisper : That, Socrates, is just another of the same sort. Good heavens, I said ; and your last question was so good ! Like all our other questions, Socrates, he replied, — inevitable. I see the reason, I said, why you are in such reputation among your disciples.
Meanwhile Cleinias had answered Euthydemus that those who learned, learn what they do not know ; and he put him through a series of questions as before. Don't you know letters? He assented. All letters ? Yes. But when the teacher dictates to you, does he not dictate letters ? He admitted that. Then if you know all letters, he dictates that which you know ? He admitted that also.
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