Phaedrus — Plato

p. 339they are like puppy-dogs, who delight to tear and pull at all who come near them. Yes, he said, that is their great delight. And when they have made many conquests and received defeats at the hands of many, they violently and speedily get into a way of not believing anything that they believed before, and hence, not only they, but philosophy generally, has a bad name with the rest of the world. That is very true, he said.

But when a man begins to get older, he will no longer be guilty of that sort of insanity ; he will follow the example of the dialectician who is seeking for truth, and not of the eristic,* who is contradicting for the sake of amusement ; and the greater moderation of his character will increase and not diminish the honor of the pursuit. Very true, he said.

And did we not make special provision for this, when we said that the natures of those to whom philosophy was to be imparted were to be orderly and steadfast, not, as now, any chance aspirant or intruder ? Very true, he said. Suppose, I said, that the study of philosophy be continued diligently and earnestly and exclusively for twice the number of years which were passed in bodily exercise — ^will that be enough ?

Would you say six or four years ? he asked. Suppose five years to be the time fixed, I replied ; after ^ that they must be sent down into the den and compelled to hold any military or other office which young men are quali- y^ fied to hold : in this way they will get their experience of life, and there will be an opportunity of trying whether, when they are drawn all manner of ways by temptation, they will stand firm or stir at all.

And how long is this stage of their lives to last? Fifteen years, I answered; and when they have '^ — reached fifty years of age, then let those who still survive and v have distinguished themselves in every deed and in all knowledge come at last to their consummation : the time has now arrived at which they must raise the eye of the soul to the universal light which lightens all things, and behold the ab- * Eristic : one who is fond of dispute.

p. 340solute good ; for that is the pattern according to which they are to order the State and the lives of individuals, and the remainder of their own lives also, making philosophy their chief pursuit ; but, when their turn comes, also toiling at politics and ruling for the public good, not as if they were doing some great thing, but of necessity ; and when they have brought up others like them and left them in their place to be governors of the State, then they will depart to the Islands of the Blest '^ and dwell there ; and the city will give them public memorials and sacrifices and honor them, if the Pythian oracle consent,^ as demigods, and at any rate as blessed and divine.

You are a statuary, Socrates, and have made our governors perfect in beauty. Yes, I said, Glaucon, and our governesses too; for you must not suppose that what I have been saying applies to men only and not to women as far as their natures can go. There you are right, he said, if, as we described, they are to have all things in common with the men.

Well, I said, and you would agree (would you not ?) that what has been said about the State and the government is not a mere dream, and although difficult not impossible, but only possible in the way that has been supposed ; that is to say when the true philosopher kings, one or more of them, are born in a State, despising the honors of this present world which they deem mean and worthless, above all esteeming right and the honor that springs from right, and regarding justice as the greatest and most necessary of all things, whose ministers they are, and whose principles will be extended by them when they set in order their own city ?

How will they do that? he said.

They will begin by sending out into the country all the inhabitants of the city who are more than ten years old, and will take possession of their children, who will be unaffected by the habits of their parents ; they will then train them in their own habits and laws, that is to say, in those which we have given them : and in this way the State and constitution of which we were speaking will soonest and most easily succeed, and the nation which has such a constitution will be most benefited. ^ See Apology, note 23. '' See Rep. » IV., 427 and note 9.

p. 341Yes, that will be the best way. And I think, Socrates, that you have very well described the way in which such a constitution might come into being. And have we not said enough of the State, and of the man who corresponds to the State, for there is no difficulty in seeing how we shall describe him ? There is no difficulty, he replied, and I say with you, enough.

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