Phaedrus — Plato

BOOK VIII And so, Glaucon, we have arrived at the conclusion that in the perfect State wives and children are to be in common ; and education and the arts of war and peace are also to *^ be common, and the best philosophers and the bravest warriors are to be their kings? ^ That, replied Glaucon, is acknowledged.

Yes, I said ; and we have further acknowledged that the governors, when appointed themselves, would take their soldiers and place them in houses such as we were describing ; nor would any one say that anything which he had was his own — their houses were to be common; and as for their property, you remember about that ?

Yes, I remember that no one was to have any of the ordinary possessions of mankind ; they were to be a sort of warrior athletes and guardians, receiving from the other citizens, in lieu of annual payment, only their maintenance, and they were to take care of themselves and of the whole State. True, I said ; and now that this division of our work is concluded, let us find the point at which we digressed, that we may return into the old path.

There is no difficulty in doing that, he replied ; you appeared then, as now, to have finished the description of the State ; and you said that such a State was good, and the man was good who answered to the State, although you had more excellent things to relate both of State and man.

And '^^ you said further, that if this was the true form, then the others were false j and of the false forms, you said, as I remember, that there were four principal ones,^ and that *the defects of them, and of the individuals corresponding to them, were worth examining : when we had seen them all, and finally agreed as to who was the best and who was the worst of them, we might consider, as you said, whether the best was not also the happiest, and the worst the most miserable.

And when I asked you what the four forms of government » The proof of these three propositions occupies Books V., VI., and VII. • For definition of the five forms of government see Introduction to Republic, p. 184.

p. 343were of which you spoke, then Polemarchus and Adeimantus put in their word ; and you began again, and have found your way to the point at which we have now arrived. Your recollection, I said, is most exact. Then, hke a wrestler, he repHed, you must put yourself again in the same position ; and let me ask- the same questions, and do give me the same answer which you were about to give me then. Yes, if I can, I will, I said.

I shall particularly wish to hear what were the four constitutions of which you were speaking.

That, I said, is easily answered : the four governments of which I spoke, so far as they have distinct names, are, first, the Cretan and Spartan,^ which are generally applauded : next, there is oligarchy ; this is not equally approved, and is a form of government which has many evils : thirdly, democracy, which naturally follows oligarchy, although different : and lastly comes tyranny, great and famous, which is different from them all, and is the fourth and worst disorder of a State.

I do not know of any other constitution which can be said to have a distinct form, but there are lordships and principalities which are bought and sold, and some other intermediate forms of government ; and these nondescripts are found among barbarians oftener than among Hellenes. Yes, he replied, there are said to be many curious forms of government among them.

Do you know, I said, that governments vary as the characters of men vary, and that there must be as many of the one as there are of the other ? Or perhaps you suppose that States are made of *' oak and rock," * and not out of the human natures which are in them, and which turn the scale and draw other things after them ? Nay, he said, the States are as the men are ; they do but grow out of human characters. Then if the constitutions of States are five, the disposition of individual minds will also be five ?

• Crete : a large island in the JEgesin, southeast of Greece. Sparta : one of the most powerful states of Greece, situated at the southern extremity. The governments of these states Plato regards as the timocratic form. * See Apology, note 38.