Timaeus — Plato

Why should they not be? I repHed ; and even if they are not, but only appear to be so to the person who is asked, ought he not to say what he thinks, whether you and I forbid him or not? I presume then that you are going to make one of the interdicted answers? I dare say that I may, notwithstanding the danger, if upon reflection I approve of any of them. But what if I give you an answer about justice other and better, he said, than any of these?

What do you deserve to have done to you? Done to me ! — as becomes the ignorant, I must learn from the wise — that is what I deserve to have done to me. What, and no payment! a pleasant notion! I will pay when I have the money, I replied. But you have, Socrates, said Glaucon : and you, Thrasymachus, need be under no anxiety about money, for we will all make a contribution for Socrates.

Yes, he replied, and then Socrates will do as he always does — refuse to answer himself, but take and pull to pieces the answer of some one else. Why, my good friend, I said, how can any one answer who knows, and says that he knows, just nothing ; and who, even if he has some faint notions of his own, is told by a man of authority not to utter them?

The natural thing is, that the speaker should be some one like yourself who professes to know and can tell what he knows. Will you then kindly answer, for the edification of the company and of myself? Glaucon and the rest of the company joined in my request, and Thrasymachus, as any one might see, was in reahty eager to speak ; for he thought that he had an excellent answer, and would distinguish himself.

But at first he affected to insist on my answering ; at length he consented to begin. Behold, he said, the wisdom of Socrates ; he refuses to teach himself, and goes about learning of others, to whom he never even says Thank you. That I learn of others, I replied, is quite true ; but that I am ungrateful I wholly deny. Money I have none, and therefore I pay in praise, which is all I have ; and how ready 2too mncJi for TJirasymachus. 15 I am to praise any one who appears to me to speak well you Republic i. will very soon find out when you answer ; for I expect that Socrates, you will answer well. Thrasyma- . . ... CHUS. Listen, then, he said ; I proclaim that justice is nothing _. ^ . ' , ' ' t^ J & The definition else than the interest of the stronger. And now why do you ofThrasymanot praise me?

But of course you won't. chus: 'justice *■ -^ _ IS the interest Let me first understand you, I replied. Justice, as you say, of the stronger is the interest of the stronger. What, Thrasymachus, is the °'^'""'^'^- meaning of this?

You cannot mean to say that because Polydamas, the pancratiast, is stronger than we are, and finds the eating of beef conducive to his bodily strength, that to eat beef is therefore equally for our good who are weaker than he is, and right and just for us? That's abominable of you, Socrates ; you take the words in the sense which is most damaging to the argument.

Not at all, my good sir, I said ; I am trying to understand them ; and I wish that you would be a little clearer. Well, he said, have you never heard that forms of government differ ; there are tyrannies, and there are democracies, and there are aristocracies? Yes, I know. And the government is the ruling power in each state? Certainly.

And the different forms of government make laws demo- Socrates comcratical, aristocratical, tyrannical, with a view to their several machusTo'^ interests ; and these laws, which are made by them for their explain his own interests, are the justice which they deliver to their "^^^"'"^• subjects, and him who transgresses them they punish as a breaker of the law, and unjust.

And that is what I mean when I say that in all states there is the same principle of justice, which is the interest of the government ; and as the 339 government must be supposed to have power, the only reasonable conclusion is, that everywhere there is one principle of justice, which is the interest of the stronger. Now I understand you, I said ; and whether you are right or not I will try to discover.

But let me remark, that in defining justice you have yourself used the word ' interest ' which you forbade me to use. It is true, however, that in your definition the words ' of the stronger ' are added. A small addition, you must allow, he said.