Timaeus — Plato

the subject, lest our aspiration, my dear friend, should turn out to be a dream only. Fear not, he replied, for your audience will not be hard upon you ; they are not sceptical or hostile. I said : My good friend, I suppose that you mean to encourage me by these words. Yes, he said.

Then let me tell you that you are doing just the reverse ; the encouragement which you offer would have been all very well had I myself believed that I knew what I was talking about : to declare the truth about matters of high interest which a man honours and loves among wise men who love him need occasion no fear or faltering in his mind ; but to carry on an argument when you are yourself only a hesitating enquirer, which is my condition, is a dangerous and slippery 451 thing ; and the danger is not that I shall be laughed at (of which the fear would be childish), but that I shall miss the truth where I have most need to be sure of my footing, and drag my friends after me in my fall.

And I pray Nemesis not to visit upon me the words which I am going to utter. , For I do indeed believe that to be an involuntary homicide is a less crime than to be a deceiver about beauty or goodness or justice in the matter of laws ^ And that is a risk which I would rather run among enemies than among friends, and therefore you do well to encourage me 2.

Glaucon laughed and said : Well then, Socrates, in case you and your argument do us any serious injury you shall be acquitted beforehand of the homicide, and shall not be held to be a deceiver ; take courage then and speak. Well, I said, the law says that when a man is acquitted he is free from guilt, and what holds at law may hold in argument. Then why should you mind?

Well, I replied, I suppose that I must retrace my steps and say what I perhaps ought to have said before in the proper place. The part of the men has been played out, and now properly enough comes the turn of the women. Of them I will proceed to speak, and the more readily since I am invited by you. ' Or inserting koL before vo/iif^ov : ' a deceiver about beauty or goodness or principles of justice or law. '^ Reading uote ev fie Trapa/nvOel.

For men born and educated like our citizens, the only way, in my opinion, of arriving at a right conclusion about the possession and use of women and children is to follow the path on which we originally started, when we said that the men were to be the guardians and watchdogs of the herd. True.

Let us further suppose the birth an*^ eoucation of our women to be subject to similar or nearly similar regulations ; then we shall see whether the result accords with our design. What do you mean?

What I mean may be put into the form of a question, I said : Are dogs divided into hes and shes, or do they both share equally in hunting and in keeping watch and in the other duties of dogs? or do we entrust to the males the entire and exclusive care of the flocks, while we leave the females at home, under the idea that the bearing and suckling their puppies is labour enough for them?

No, he said, they share alike ; the only difference between them is that the males are stronger and the females weaker. But can you use different animals for the same purpose, unless they are bred and fed in the same way? You cannot. Then, if women are to have the same duties as men, they 452 must have the same nurture and education? Yes. The education which was assigned to the men was music and gymnastic. Yes.

Then women must be taught music and gymnastic and also the art of war, which they must practise like the men? That is the inference, I suppose. I should rather expect, I said, that several of our proposals, if they are carried out, being unusual, may appear ridiculous. No doubt of it.

Yes, and the most ridiculous thing of all will be the sight of women naked in the palaestra, exercising with the men, especially when they are no longer young ; they certainly will not be a vision of beauty, any more than the enthusiastic

Republic V. S0CKATE$, Glaucon.

No distinction among the animals such as is made between men and women.

Women must be taught music, gymnastic, and military exercises equally with men.

p. 144

The jests of the wits.

Republic V. Socrates, Glaucon.

Convention should not be permitted to stand in the way of a higher good.