Timaeus — Plato

The epithet is very appropriate, for there is something truly divine in being able to argue as you have done for the superiority of injustice, and remaining unconvinced by your own arguments. And I do believe that you are not convinced — this I infer from your general character, for had I judged only from your speeches I should have mistrusted you. But now, the greater my confidence in you, the greater is my

Glaucon and Adeimantus able to argue so well, but unconvinced by their own arguments.

p. 48

The individual afid the State.

Republic //. vSoCRATES, Adeimantus.

The large letters, and the small.

Justice to be seen in the State more easily than in the individual.

difficulty in knowing what to say. For I am in a strait between two ; on the one hand I feel that I am unequal to the task ; and my inability is brought home to me by the fact that you were not satisfied with the answer which I made to Thrasymachus, proving, as I thought, the superiority which justice has over injustice.

And yet I cannot refuse to help, while breath and speech remain to me ; I am afraid that there would be an impiety in being present when justice is evil spoken of and not lifting up a hand in her defence. And therefore I had best give such help as I can. Glaucon and the rest entreated me by all means not to let the question drop, but to proceed in the investigation.

They wanted to arrive at the truth, first, about the nature of justice and injustice, and secondly, about their relative advantages. I told them, what I really thought, that the enquiry would be of a serious nature, and would require very good eyes.

Seeing then, I said, that we are no great wits, I think that we had better adopt a method which I may illustrate thus ; suppose that a short-sighted person had been asked by some one to read small letters from a distance ; and it occurred to some one else that they might be found in another place which was larger and in which the letters were larger — if they were the same and he could read the larger letters first, and then proceed to the lesser — this would have been thought a rare piece of good fortune.

Very true, said Adeimantus ; but how does the illustration apply to our enquiry? I will tell you, I replied ; justice, which is the subject of our enquiry, is, as you know, sometimes spoken of as the virtue of an individual, and sometimes as the virtue of a State. True, he replied. And is not a State larger than an individual? It is. Then in the larger the quantity of justice is likely to be larger and more easily discernible.

I propose therefore that we enquire into the nature of justice and injustice, first as they appear in the State, and secondly in the individual, 3( proceeding from the greater to the lesser and comparing them.

The origin of the State.

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That, he said, is an excellent proposal. And if we imagine the State in process of creation, we shall see the justice and injustice of the State in process of creation also. I dare say. When the State is completed there may be a hope that the object of our search may be more easily discovered. Yes, far more easily. But ought we to attempt to construct one ? I said ; for to do so, as I am inclined to think, will be a very serious task. Reflect therefore. I have reflected) said Adeimantus, and am anxious that you should proceed. A State, I said, arises, as I conceive, out of the needs of mankind ; no one is self-sufficing, but all of us have many wants. Can any other origin of a State be imagined? There can be no other. Then, as we have many wants, and many persons are needed to supply them, one takes a helper for one purpose and another for another ; and when these partners and helpers are gathered together in one habitation the body of inhabitants is termed a State. True, he said. And they exchange with one another, and one gives, and another receives, under the idea that the exchange will be for their good. Very true. Then, I said, let us begin and create in idea a State ; and yet the true creator is necessity, who is the mother of our invention. Of course, he replied. Now the first and greatest of necessities is food, which is the condition of life and existence. Certainly. The second is a dweUing, and the third clothing and the like. True. And now let us see how our city will be able to supply this great demand : We may suppose that one man is a husbandman, another a builder, some one else a weaver — VOL, III. — 19

Republic II. Socrates, Adeimantus.

The State arises out of the wants of men.